babble-intro-img
babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.

The "f" in your tap. get HFSA OUT. Vote OUT Fluoride

voteoutfluoride
Offline
Joined: Mar 7 2010

World Water day is observed by millions all over the world. It marks a day of adherence by governments to make water accessible and safe. Toronto's water is far from safe, and dangerously accessible. A fluorosilicate in the name of HEXAFLUOROSILICIC ACID (HFSA) is added to Toronto's public drinking water. HFSA is an industrial waste product from the phosphate fertilizer industry that comes mainly from Florida and China. It costs taxpayers millions a year to add, operate, and treat its side effects, including dental fluorosis. Dental Fluorosis is caused by excessive fluoride intake, consumed easily through food and beverages, tap water, and dental products. Dental Fluorosis costs significantly more to treat than the cavities it presumes to prevent.

On March 22, join the Vote OUT Fluoride campaign outside city hall to express your support for removing HFSA from our public water supply to make Toronto's water safe and accessible for everyone.


Comments

dgr_insurrection
Offline
Joined: Feb 15 2010

...I hate to break it to you, but 1 ppm (Toronto's level) is a safe level. That, and dental fluorosis is caused by ingesting fluoride, not topical exposure. So unless you swallow toothpaste it isn't going to have any effect.

 

...

 

 

Who put the fluoride in our water? Was it the commies?


Ken Burch
Offline
Joined: Feb 26 2005

They always WERE messing with "our precious bodily fluids".


Sineed
Offline
Joined: Dec 4 2005

Here's some reputable info on fluoride:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/fluor-eng.php

Quote:
The use of fluoride for the prevention of dental cavities is endorsed by over 90 national and international professional health organizations including Health Canada, the Canadian Public Health Association, the Canadian Dental Association, the Canadian Medical Association, the Food and Drug Administration of the United States and the World Health Organization.

Fluorides protect tooth enamel against the acids that cause tooth decay. Many studies have shown that fluoridated drinking water greatly reduces the number of cavities in children's teeth. Fluoride is used in many communities across Canada, spanning most provinces and territories. About 40 percent of Canadians receive fluoridated water.

Cheers,


Michelle
Offline
Joined: May 10 2001

I'd ask for them to get rid of the flouride from my drinking water, but I've really enjoyed having a childhood free of cavities, and an adulthood with strong teeth, something my parents didn't have.  I'd like my son to have a similar childhood and adulthood.


Ken Burch
Offline
Joined: Feb 26 2005

Why did some people think that flouridation was a communist plot?


bagkitty
Offline
Joined: Aug 27 2008

And flouride is not unobtainium, and therefore can be classified as natural... whoops, wrong thread.


E.P.Houle
Offline
Joined: Feb 2 2009

I believe it was this flouride issue that started David Suzuki on the path to activism. I think his father was a chemist in Trail and he was told that unrefined flouride waste was shipped to Seattle for water treatment when the idea was new. It certainly is not pharmaceutical grade. Why wouldn't you get your flouride in your toothpaste? Then I wouldn't have had a life with the symptoms of an over-dose.


Tigana
Offline
Joined: Oct 23 2008

@Pogge - yes, a few fatalities; not a pandemic, not the (hoped-for?) plague...the sky didn't fall. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

@Michelle - bad teeth, diabetes and obesity are avoidable when diet is healthy and sugar-free. 

http://www.gobeyondorganic.com/Weekly-News-Tips/how-were-we-fooled-into-...

@Sineed - As for this 

"Here's some reputable info on fluoride:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/fluor-eng.php"

Props up the status quo, but watering the lawn with fluoride will seed the future with problems. Like using mercury in dental fillings or scattering road salt, you are planting dragon's teeth.

Here's the Council of Canadians on fluoride in water (NAY)

http://www.canadians.org/water/issues/Unbottle_It/fluoride.html

 


 

 


voteoutfluoride
Offline
Joined: Mar 7 2010

Fluoride comes in many forms. There are organic, inorganic and pharmaceutical grade fluorides. The fluoride in most of Canada's public drinking water suply comes laced in a product called hexafluorosilicic acid (HFSA). This product is achived from brushing off the smoke stalks from the phosphate fertilizer indsutry. For every 40k ton truckload that goes to the city of Toronto, tax payers fork out $1500. These companies save $8900 for not having to manage this waste, and they're making a profit. This product also carries pounds of arsenic and lead that do not get removed at the treatment plants.

Proponents of fluorides missed the diligence boat by not informing consumers that the fluoride in their water is not the same kind of fluoride they use in dental products or that found naturally in ground water. They also failed to tell them that virtually all foods and beverages are prepared with fluoridated water, making further injestion unnecessary.

Take HFSA out. It's carcinogenic, expensive, unethical and unnecessary.


voteoutfluoride
Offline
Joined: Mar 7 2010

Ken Burch wrote:

Why did some people think that flouridation was a communist plot?

Fluoride gas chambers.


voteoutfluoride
Offline
Joined: Mar 7 2010

Information that comes from a source of authority, in your case, the government, does not qualify its "reputablness". I remind you that lead was also classified and touted as "safe" by people we ordinarly "succumb" to trust; governments, doctors, even scientists. It's a phenomenon that has brought us to these devastating times. It's not merely about questioning authority. This is the means, not the end. You must know how to adequatly assess, investigate and draw conclusions based on a sound understanding of scientific instruments of validation. Unfortunantly, most of the population lacks this necessary understanding. They also neglect to look at the scientific consensus, or rather lack thereof, of certain issues and possible medical hazards. There is absolutely NO consensus in the scientific community on the purported "benefits of fluoride".

I encourage you to study this further.

Tigana wrote:

@Pogge - yes, a few fatalities; not a pandemic, not the (hoped-for?) plague...the sky didn't fall. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

@Michelle - bad teeth, diabetes and obesity are avoidable when diet is healthy and sugar-free. 

http://www.gobeyondorganic.com/Weekly-News-Tips/how-were-we-fooled-into-...

@Sineed - As for this 

"Here's some reputable info on fluoride:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/environ/fluor-eng.php"

Props up the status quo, but watering the lawn with fluoride will seed the future with problems. Like using mercury in dental fillings or scattering road salt, you are planting dragon's teeth.

Here's the Council of Canadians on fluoride in water (NAY)

http://www.canadians.org/water/issues/Unbottle_It/fluoride.html

 


 

 


Snert
Offline
Joined: Nov 4 2008

I saw the "Vote Out Fluroide" pamphleting at the Eaton Centre the other day, but I really thought it was some kind of viral marketing stunt for something else.  Anyway, love to help but I'm really busy denying the moon landing.


voteoutfluoride
Offline
Joined: Mar 7 2010

I was the one in the cowboy boots. No "viral marketing", just an effort to educate the public. Anyway, I'm pleased to hear you saw us and had the time to drop in a friendly Hello.


Yiwah
Offline
Joined: Oct 12 2006

I grew up drinking well water.  Good genes means I never had problems with my teeth.  Well, that and wicked awesome dental hygiene, including twice yearly flouride treatment at the dentist's.  Montreal, where I currently live, does not put flouride in its tap water.  A lot of people who are all super anti-flouride buy organic toothpaste with no flouride in it as well (or do so not knowing of the lack in the water supply).  The dentist my daughters see rolls her eyes at the number of cavities she sees compared to her practice in Toronto. 

I have never seen any reputable facts that actually support the claims made by the anti-flouride crowd.


Yiwah
Offline
Joined: Oct 12 2006

E.P.Houle wrote:

I believe it was this flouride issue that started David Suzuki on the path to activism. I think his father was a chemist in Trail and he was told that unrefined flouride waste was shipped to Seattle for water treatment when the idea was new. It certainly is not pharmaceutical grade. Why wouldn't you get your flouride in your toothpaste? Then I wouldn't have had a life with the symptoms of an over-dose.

I'd love to see a source for this claim.


Michelle
Offline
Joined: May 10 2001

What does diabetes and obesity have to do with anything, Tigana?  Did I claim that flouride prevents diabetes and obesity?


voteoutfluoride
Offline
Joined: Mar 7 2010

Yiwah wrote:

I grew up drinking well water.  Good genes means I never had problems with my teeth.  Well, that and wicked awesome dental hygiene, including twice yearly flouride treatment at the dentist's.  Montreal, where I currently live, does not put flouride in its tap water.  A lot of people who are all super anti-flouride buy organic toothpaste with no flouride in it as well (or do so not knowing of the lack in the water supply).  The dentist my daughters see rolls her eyes at the number of cavities she sees compared to her practice in Toronto. 

I have never seen any reputable facts that actually support the claims made by the anti-flouride crowd.

A study by Statistics Canada just revelaed there is no statistical significance between children's cavities in Quebec (that doesn't fluoridate) and Ontario (fluoridates). The WHO reports similar findings. This is why roughly only about 6% of the world's population fluoridates, with 98% of western Europe against the practice.


voteoutfluoride
Offline
Joined: Mar 7 2010

dgr_insurrection wrote:

...I hate to break it to you, but 1 ppm (Toronto's level) is a safe level. That, and dental fluorosis is caused by ingesting fluoride, not topical exposure. So unless you swallow toothpaste it isn't going to have any effect.

 

...

 

 

Who put the fluoride in our water? Was it the commies?

 

Studies by the National Research Council (NRC) have found detrimental helath effects including lowered IQ at just under 0.3 ppm. Fluoride in your toothpaste has roughly 1450 ppm and at least 1/2 of this remains in gums after rinsing.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/accidents/lethal.html


Sineed
Offline
Joined: Dec 4 2005

Yiwah wrote:

I have never seen any reputable facts that actually support the claims made by the anti-flouride crowd.

Seconding this. 

Truth is, progressive people should support fluoridation because it's basically dental insurance for the poor: if you can't afford to take your kids to the dentist, fluoridation means they will have stronger teeth than they otherwise would have.

My dentist explained it thusly: I asked him about wisdom teeth, and why so many people need to have them out.  He explained that the natural thing to happen is that at least some of molars in front of your wisdom teeth would be rotten by the time you were eighteen, so then these late-emerging teeth meant that you entered adulthood with some functioning molars.  Modern dentistry and fluoridation meant that more people were keeping their molars, so the wisdom teeth get crowded out and have to be removed.

Our natural state is to die before we're 40 with a mouthful of rotten teeth. 


Sineed
Offline
Joined: Dec 4 2005

voteoutfluoride wrote:

Studies by the National Research Council (NRC) have found detrimental helath effects including lowered IQ at just under 0.3 ppm. Fluoride in your toothpaste has roughly 1450 ppm and at least 1/2 of this remains in gums after rinsing.

IQ is pretty slippery to measure in the 1st place.  A cup of coffee raises your IQ.  Sleep deprivation lowers your IQ.


Tigana
Offline
Joined: Oct 23 2008

 

Michelle, perhaps diet/nutrition protect against tooth decay as well as obesity and diabetes. 

 

Sineed wrote:

Our natural state is to die before we're 40 with a mouthful of rotten teeth. 

Sineed, many skulls of pre-colonial peoples show sets of perfect caries-free teeth. 

 

 

From the Material Safety Data Sheet on Sodium Fluoride:

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Sodium_fluoride-9927595

Special Remarks on other Toxic Effects on Humans: 

Quote:

Acute Potential Health Effects: 

Skin: Causes skin irritation and possible burns, especially if skin is wet or moist. 

Eyes: Causes eye irritation and burns. May cause chemical conjunctivitis and corneal damage. 

Ingestion: Harmful if swallowed. Causes digestive (gastrointestinal) tract irritation and burns. May cause severe 

and permanent damage to the digestive. Ingestion of large amounts may cause salivation, thirst, nausea, 

vomiting, hypermotility, diarrhea, and abdominal pain. May affect behavior/central nervous system/nervous 

system (headache, nervousness, dizziness, seizures, convulsions, tremor, muscle weakness, somnolence), 

respiration (respiratory depression, dyspnea), cardiovascular system (weak pulse, hypotension, dysrhythmias, 

cardiac arrest), liver, urinary system (polyuria, polydypsia) 

brain, metabolism (loss of appetite, hypcalcemia, hyperkalemia, hypomagnesia, ), teeth, bones, and blood 

(changes in red and white blood cell count, interference in blood coagulation) 

Inhalation: Causes irritation and chemical burns of the respiratory tract with coughing, breathing difficulty and 

possibly nasal septum perforation and coma. May affect bones. 

Chronic Potential Heath Effects: 

Chronic ingestion may cause fluorosis. Effects of fluorisis may include joint pain, weakness, limited joint mobility, 

brittle bones, ossifications on x-ray, thickening of long bone cortices, calcificaiton of ligaments, osteomalacia, 

osteosclerosis (skeletal (bone and teeth) abnormalties) and mottled tooth enamel. Other symptoms may include 

anemia, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea or constipation, kidney damage and weight loss/anorexia. 

Chronic inhalation may cause bronchitis to develop with cough, phlegm, and/or shortness of breath, liver (hepatic enzymes increased, jaundice)."

 

 

 


bagkitty
Offline
Joined: Aug 27 2008

Tigana. Before attributing the high rate of suicide amongst dentists to exposure to "chemicals" (and most studies do identify dentists to be at "higher than average" risk for suicide... although they are usually lumped in with other health professionals, doctors, apparently, also have a high suicide rate) take into account the psychological factors... the personality "type" that is represented in the field and the highly negative social feedback they get from their patients. I find the explanations regarding stress (environmental and self-imposed) and its relationship to suicide amongst dentists a little more plausible than tossing exposure to "chemicals", seemingly out of the blue.


Sineed
Offline
Joined: Dec 4 2005

Tigana wrote:

Sineed wrote:

Our natural state is to die before we're 40 with a mouthful of rotten teeth. 

Sineed, many skulls of pre-colonial peoples show sets of perfect caries-free teeth. 

How old were they when they died?

This notion that the modern Western diet is responsible for tooth decay, and that pre-colonial people had perfect teeth, is, like human teeth without dentistry and fluoride, pure rot.


ennir
Offline
Joined: Feb 8 2009

Actually if you look at the Inuit they had remarkable teeth until they were introduced to the modern world, I think a good case good be made for sugar being at the root of much tooth decay and sugar goes back quite a ways.  I recall reading that when they first introduced the idea of adding sugar to beer they actually rioted in England.  Now they put it in salt.

I prefer to keep my exposure to unnecessary chemicals to a minimum and given that it is available in toothpaste I have to wonder why is it necessary for it to be in the water supply.  I don't trust a system that  on a regular fucking basis demonstrates that greed without regard for the impact on human life is the way of the world, is in fact celebrated as capitalism. 

The "safe" limits are based on studies they did on men, men are not women, children are not men.  Women have more body fat, chemicals linger in body fat, look at the rate of breast cancer today.  Forty years ago breast cancer was rare.

Further, what are the synergistic effects of the various chemicals we are exposed to?  Nobody fucking knows.  I take that back, cancer, cancer, cancer.


jas
Offline
Joined: Jun 6 2005

I agree. If you want flouride, buy toothpaste.


al-Qa'bong
Offline
Joined: Feb 27 2003

jas wrote:

I agree.

You would.


Snert
Offline
Joined: Nov 4 2008

Wouldn't the small amount of fluoride in water qualify it as "homeopathy", and shouldn't that make it appealing to the anti-science crowd?

You can pretend it's just been watered down and watered down and watered down, but  through the miraculous "memory" of water it can protect you from fluoride poisoning!

If that doesn't help, pretend it's a magic healing crystal that realigns your chakra from the inside.


jas
Offline
Joined: Jun 6 2005
I've got a better idea. Let's put milk in the water system since the Canada Food Guide recommends several servings of dairy per day and tells us that milk is good for all of us. Moreover, some people can't afford milk, so this would help them get that daily intake of protein, calcium and animal pus. I would also throw some Vitamin C in there. Nothing wrong with Vitamin C, right? Can't help but benefit from that. Oh, and what about some kind of H1N1 preventative, since not everyone complied with the most recent request. Come to think of it, there's so many things we can do with our public water system that are obviously for the good of everyone and should probably just be thrown in there without all this bothersome debate.

Tigana
Offline
Joined: Oct 23 2008

How about tackling a really good progressive issue: clean water for Canadian Natives? 


Sineed
Offline
Joined: Dec 4 2005

Tigana wrote:

How about tackling a really good progressive issue: clean water for Canadian Natives? 

I completely agree.  Clean, fluoridated water.


Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or register to post comments