babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Does a PQ win mean a referendum on sovereignty?
March 5, 2014 - 2:05pm
Since the Quebec election's been called people have been saying a Marios win means a referundum on sogeriegnty. Do you think this is likely and if so how do see it playing out? At the federal level who do you see playing the part of Captain Canada on behalf of the ROC and federalist Quebecers?
[thread title edited and thread moved to Quebec forum]
An immense waste of money and time...Support for sovereignty has been shrinking at break neck speed.
Cue Trudeau,Mulcair and Harpo fighting for official Captain Canada status.
Québec has been recognized as a nation within Canada..If the PQ had one working brain cell in their pinholed heads,they'd govern as such and spare the public of another failed referendum.
very unlikely
I don't think Harper will fight for Captain Canada status, so its between Justin and Mulcair and Justin just doesn't have the Quebec Machine to take the role, nor does he have th experience or talent.
So at he end of the day that leaves Mulcair.
I nominate Mulcair for Captain Canada!
Is that higher or lower than PM?
If Mulcair wants to play Captain Canada, be ready to see the NDP wiped off the map in Québec. Remember, there's a very large proportion of sovereignists voters who voted for the NDP, while the federalists stayed with the Liberals.
Not to mention that there are several elected members of the NDP that are sovereignists as well: they took anyone they could find and the left wing in Québec is massively sovereignist (just like the right wing is federalist). If there is a referendum (which there won't be as long as Marois is the leader of the PQ, she just doesn't have the charisma) and the NDP tries to look like the liberals, the party risks breaking apart.
Trudeau will be Captain Canada, if only for his name and his hair.
Except that Trudeau said something which (if he stuck to it) would resonate with vast numbers of Quebecers:
Mulcair would never say anything so traitorous as that. Which is why I'm sticking with my nomination. Go Cap'n Tom!!
For the Bloc to make a decent comeback, they'd need a leader people might recognize if they fell over him in the street.
Maybe Parizeau can be lured out of retirement. He's certainly engaged enough to keep poking at every subsequent PQ leader.
(Really, I'd love to see Vivian Barbot take the job.)
Parizeau is 86 years old and slowing wayyy down so that's out of the question and Vivian Barbot is in her 70s and may be a very bad fit for the BQ now that the "new BQ/PQ" is all about appealing to xenophobic ethnic nationalism in rural Quebec. The "children of Duplessis" in rural Quebec who are new backbone of the PQ/BQ would be very unenthusiastic about voting for a black woman.
Again with that myth: people expect that there is a region/Montreal duality like those present in Ontario or BC. It's simply not true in Québec, the break is between Francophone and Anglophone. Except for the city of Québec (which is far more right-wing), francophones, whether in Montréal or in the regions, are very close on most social issues.
Matthieu - please don't debate with this provocateur. He's been spewing shit like this for years, especially about Québec. I've flagged his post as offensive.
People who support Marois's anti-hijab and kippa law - are not going to want to vote for anyone who doesn't "look" (sic.) like a Quebecer...and for pur et dur nationalists - to look like a Quebecer you have to be white and have a last name like Tremblay or Morin.
Ground Control to Major Tom, perhaps?
What's the point of independance if Québec will continue to govern identically with Canada?
If we're not going to be a progressive country,I vote NO!
Oh ffs. Stockholm just stay out of this thread. Thanks.
I don`t know about `Captain Canada`, but I would lay heavy odds that Trudeau will be campaigning hard if it should come to another referendum. But I doubt that we will see another referendum anytime soon. This election is about getting a majority, not seccession.
In my experience (I live in Estrie), people are all pretty close on social issues,* regardless of langauge. I sure don't think anglophones in "the regions" are more right-wing.
A referendum seems very unlikely, not a lot of people want one.
* the secular charter aside...
I think this worry is over-blown. Let's remember how unpopular the Charest government was throughout its whole mandate, and the difficulty the Parti Quebecois had in defeating this government. What was it that Charest held that made it difficult for the PQ? My sense is that the fact that Charest was not going to call a referendum played into this. And even last go around, with the social unrest and the corruption scandals and the fact that the 2 sovereigntist parties that campaigned in the last election were onside with Quebec public opinion on most issues and Marois (who had some social capital thanks to her daycare program) downplayed the issue, they still failed to win a majority coalition. Why? My sense again is that the referendum issue hindered the sovereigntist parties. And this was before, when Marois was taking down an unpopular government. Now she has some political baggage of her own, notably the Secular Charter. I can also remember in the 1994 there had been considerable open talk about Quebec's frustration within Canada, talk that seems now notably absent, save for the chatter among the media classes of this country who are playing off the ignorance in English Canada but who are also unaware as to how the ground has shifted.
So what should Mulcair do? I think his use of the word "tragic" to describe a hypothetical PQ majority was very ill-advised. The best he can do would be to stay out of the direct fray, but to continue to advocate for Quebec's interests where it concerns federal jurisdiction, for example Canada Post or infrastructure. And juding by the fact that the NDP won Quebec, I think there is a healthy appetite within Quebec from people across the spectrum to have a healthy, constructive relationship between the federal and provincial governments.
http://democraticvotingcanada.blogspot.ca/2014/03/mulcair-backs-federali...
The liberals are out smearing Tom on his neutrality on the Quebec election.
I just moved to Montreal. I generally support the Quebec National Project, however it may be compatible within a united Canada. The concept of Quebec nationality is a good contrast to the schizoid Anglosphere and complete lack of a distinctive English Canadian culture, Twittering each other as they do about Sarah Palin and Miley Cyrus.
Unless Marois specifically says she is running on a referendum during this election I cannot see how she can spring one on the electorate during this term. That would be political toxic waste, and the PQ would be out of it for 20 years. I can't see how her husband and their friends would let her do that. Quebec Inc. is boasting good growth numbers and healthy profits. The deal seems to be that she is running on the secular charter. On the other hand, she may want to play coy on the referendum to keep the strong pequistes on board.
The other thing is that Marois has provided a reasonably competent government, and is still not seen as being as corrupt as the provincial Liberals. In addition, she seems to have a more empathetic personality than the two guys who are running the Liberals and whatever that other party thing is. They seem to be non-entities. In the recent Marois budget they had 3250 social housing units. When was the last time they did that in Ontario, a place with practically double the economy?
There is always this hysteria in English Canada about Quebec. All they can whine is "please don't go" like little children. It cannot "go". It is a land mass weighing trillions of tonnes. The reactions I have seen from Anglos on the comments sections of Canadian newspapers say it all. Who can blame Quebec for wanting to leave people like that. If they do, I'm down with it. Its not like Canada would do anything anyway. "Oh you can keep your Canadian passport and file your Canadian taxes", I am sure they will mewl. They let people keep passports from places like Israel and Uganda, so why not Quebec?
Indeed, there are many other possible "national" or constitutional arrangements.
I feel NO appetite for a referendum now. By the way, there are three sovereignist parties (unless I'm forgetting some marginal one), though Union nationale hasn't won any seats, and I doubt they will this time.
One interesting thing I've been reading lately is that the Parti vert du Québec have moved left and now declare themselves "ecosocialist". They used to have a far from socailly-progressive platform, but I'm interested in reading about any progressive turn, if it is earnest.
I don't know if I'd call Dr Barrette, who looks like some kind of child of Rob Ford and Boris Johnson, a "non-entity" but both he and Dr Coullard have supported types of privatisation and two-tier medicine - bad doctors!
3250 social housing units is better than nothing, but it is ridiculously under the number needed, even in Villeray or Petite-Patrie alone. Condo conversions are making it harder and harder for people with limited incomes to secure decent housing. The latest was the conversion of the former School for the Deaf into les condos Le Castelnau. Not only were no social housing units built there, there are also many, many parking spaces, although it is right across the street from the Castelnau métro station and very short walking distance from Jean-Talon Market, Jarry Park and the big Loblaws.
while I am totally against the charter thing, you are quite wrong on the above; sounds like you rely on The Gazette for your QC news
ethnic and first-generation sovereignists, like current PQ culture minister Maka Kotto, who is very popular among pequistes (and loudly supports the charter), and central Montreal, Latino unionists , say, find no barrier to entry in the party...
I remember long talks with PQ cultural communities minister Gerald Godin in the '80s, who taught himself Greek in order to better communicate with his central-city electors, about the possibilities for a coalition among progressive and ethnic voters; there is broad part of the urban party that strongly supports that, so using your broad brush as you do does not negate that reality
Yes, and there is a definite faction among Maghrebi and Middle-Eastern Québécois who are hardline secularists and very much don't want to see people in hijabs, crosses, turbans or any other religious garb. These are not all warriors for imperialism against the benighted global South like some prominent ex-Muslims in the RoC, the Netherlands and other places. Many if not most are on various shades of the left. This attitude is pariticularly strong among Algerians who define themselves as Berbers or Kabyles - remember, more than a few of such people have fled massacres committed both by the Muslim fundamentalists and the military.
I have a friend who lost much of his family there in the 1990s, but we don't ask him about the details. He has come around to the idea that people should be able to wear what they want, and that not every woman with a scarf on her head is a Salafist who wishes his wife or sister dead because they are secular. But there are reasons for such attitudes that come out of experience even harsher than what "pure-laine" Catholic Québécoises endured at the hands of a reactionary and domineering Church - the film Philomena, like the earlier Magdalen Laudries, both set in Ireland, give a taste of those times.
Yes, there were definitely Greek Workers Association members and other "lefty ethnics" who supported Godin; I remember the same among the Italian FILEF, up here. Remember that the first PQ government passed some very important progressive legislation, in favour of women and LGBT people, about ethics in politics and limits on campaign spending, and protection of farmland from speculation.
Also the PQ brought in the very first anti-scab law on the continent.
Turns out Mulcair wasn't alone in having a secret meeting with Harper about how to interfere in the Québec election:
Mulcair Not The Only Leader Harper Consulted On Quebec Election
Mulcair and Harper are on the same Ukrainian wave length. Must be why Harper felt he could trust Mulcair on the Québec problem.
http://www.heydary.com/resources/mr_submarine_ltd_v_sowdaey.html
http://www.heydary.com/resources/mr_submarine_ltd_v_sowdaey.html
WTF was that?
Yeah. so like quebec wants to make its own secret sauce....whats the big deal?