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Water tables falling, rivers running dry. So what's the plan?

gram swaraj
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Joined: Dec 30 2005
 

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gram swaraj
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Speaking of population reduction...this is from Lester Brown's Earth Policy Institute, July 24, 2007.

quote:As the world’s demand for water has tripled over the last half-century and as the demand for hydroelectric power has grown even faster, dams and diversions of river water have drained many rivers dry. As water tables fall, the springs that feed rivers go dry, reducing river flows.

Scores of countries are overpumping aquifers as they struggle to satisfy their growing water needs, including each of the big three grain producers--China, India, and the United States. More than half the world’s people live in countries where water tables are falling.

The same is happening in Canada, although it's not directly mentioned in this particular report. Given climate change, how far south will Americans want to pump water from Canada? (This is all part of "security and prosperity," right?) Will they pump it all the way to a hotter southwest, or will American populations move north, like into Montana, the Dakotas, Canada itself?

What is the future of desalination plants? Will we see more? Of course this will mean huge energy demands, for the desalination and pumping/transport of the desalinated h2o. It would also entail centralization of power.

ETA: So what's the plan - in Canada, N. America, globally? Or is there none?

[ 08 August 2007: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]


CharlotteAshley
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Joined: Dec 16 2005
Well, this doesn't qualify as a plan, but it's worth mentioning that Canada does not allow the "bulk export" of water - so nobody will be pumping anything anywhere under current law. Of course, the federal and several provincial governments are currently involved in lawsuits with American companies who feel they were promised the right to export water - we'll see where that goes (my thinking is that they will be told to go suck an egg).

But all that said - honestly, the US are a lot bigger, stronger and meaner than we are - if the US government feels that Canadian water is the key to American prosperity, they'll get it, whatever the laws are.

Charlotte


remind
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Well, here at the headwaters of the Fraser and Columbia Rivers, I just signed a petition yesterday to stop the, about to be implimented, sale of bulk water to the USA and other markets around the world.

marzo
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What kinds of technology exist for the de-salination of sea water? Can it be done on a large scale?
Could it be possible to dig underground storage areas in desert regions to create artificial aquifers with water coming from icebergs? In the deserts of the southern hemisphere Antarctic ice might be tranported in huge quantities to the Kalahari, Atacama, and Australian deserts and in the northern hemisphere icebergs could be buried in the Sahara, the Gobi and other deserts.
This sounds far-fetched and such a plan would have to include water conservation and recycling, but conventional thinking won't work if we are to adapt in the future crisis.

Toby Fourre
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Joined: Oct 26 2006
The most obvious solution to water shortage, at least around large cities, is recycling. Waste water can be cleaned and re-used. Opposition to this is mostly from revulsion, people don't want to drink it when they think they know where it comes from. Thus the recycle option is generally discarded before any practical discussions of how to do it.

Banned_from_FD
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Someday they will develop a fast, cheap way to desalinize water from the oceans.

There just not is an urgent need for it yet.


Fidel
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quote:Originally posted by Banned_from_FD:
Someday they will develop a fast, cheap way to desalinize water from the oceans.

There just not is an urgent need for it yet.

It would likely be an energy intensive method. And since we already pay an arm and a leg for electrical power with exporting massive amounts of electricity and other energy sources to the U.S., it would end up costing us an arm and a leg. Especially with the U.S. declaring our water and other resources their national interests. Stephen Harper and Liberal "opposition" voting with his "minority" government on SPP and NAU are working hard to give away what's left of Canada's economic sovereignty to Yanqui imperialists.


Toby Fourre
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There have been many proposals to pump Canadian wateer all the way to Los Angeles. The cost of doing it, both in money and environmental damage, makes one wonder if there are other motives involved. Are there big construction companies salivating at the thought of huge government contracts?

When you look at the cost of moving Canadian water south, recycling and de-salination aren't as out of reach as customarily thought. Much of the American Southwest, including Los Angeles, is a desert. Residents need to learn to conserve water.

The old-fashioned method of de-salination used solar power. That's how Gandi got salt out of sea water.


remind
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quote:Originally posted by marzo:
What kinds of technology exist for the de-salination of sea water? Can it be done on a large scale?

Countries, such as Saudi Arabia, on the Persian Gulf already do this on a large scale, and there are many such plants around the world.

quote:Desalination of ocean water is practiced in many regions that have scarce natural freshwater supplies; it is widespread in the Middle East and the Caribbean, and is increasingly used in parts of the United States, North Africa, Singapore, Spain, Australia and China.[citation needed] It is also used on many ships and submarines.

Desalination typically requires large amounts of energy as well as specialized, expensive infrastructure, making it very costly compared to the use of fresh water from rivers or wells (bores). The large energy reserves of many Middle Eastern countries have allowed for desalination to be employed relatively cheaply. Saudi Arabia's desalination plants account for about 24% of total world capacity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination

quote:Could it be possible to dig underground storage areas in desert regions to create artificial aquifers with water coming from icebergs? In the deserts of the southern hemisphere Antarctic ice might be tranported in huge quantities to the Kalahari, Atacama, and Australian deserts and in the northern hemisphere icebergs could be buried in the Sahara, the Gobi and other deserts.
This sounds far-fetched and such a plan would have to include water conservation and recycling, but conventional thinking won't work if we are to adapt in the future crisis.

The transportation of polar ice caps to the areas, as well as the equipment needed to load and off load, and then place the ice and covering it, would have huge costs incurred, and not just monitarily. The transportation of it melted would probably be more effective. Whereby if it was melted, somehow using solar energy, at site, and then transported in water tankers with pipelines from the ports running it to where it would be stored, would be less so. But again it still would be costly environmentally and monetarily.

[ 11 August 2007: Message edited by: remind ]


Toby Fourre
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quote:Desalination typically requires large amounts of energy as well as specialized, expensive infrastructure, making it very costly compared to the use of fresh water from rivers or wells (bores).

Fresh water is cheap only on a small, local scale. On a larger scale, it is only cheap if the environmental costs are ignored.


gram swaraj
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Joined: Dec 30 2005
This is an important topic, considering our bodies are 70% water. The way water is mismanaged, overused and wasted in "modern" society is yet another thing that will make future generations look back on us and call industrialized society primitive.

Recycling of water may be one way to stretch the use of a scarce resource. But how about some mitigating measures, instead of inadequate techno-solutions for a problem passively accepted as inevitable?

Like, how about just using less? e.g., reduce the number and size of vehicles people feel they need to wash. And replace more private lawns (the stupid things) with permaculture, ie, plants that retain moisture, instead of watering the things only to cut them again, emitting GHGs in the process. As much as possible, I try to save grey water in a bucket for toilet flushing (and water conservation generally means saving on energy used to purify and pump water.)

How much water doesn't make it to aquifers now, due to land being covered by concrete? How much is Canada going to suffer to keep the swimming pools of Beverly Hills replenished?


Banned_from_FD
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Joined: Jul 21 2007
quote:Originally posted by Fidel:

It would likely be an energy intensive method. And since we already pay an arm and a leg for electrical power with exporting massive amounts of electricity and other energy sources to the U.S., it would end up costing us an arm and a leg. Especially with the U.S. declaring our water and other resources their national interests. Stephen Harper and Liberal "opposition" voting with his "minority" government on SPP and NAU are working hard to give away what's left of Canada's economic sovereignty to Yanqui imperialists.

That is why I said "fast and cheap".

I dont think the tecknology is available yet. But I can see some sort off power plant/desalinization plant as one giant facility.

I think we are a few decades away.


marzo
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The Antarctic ice cap is a huge reserve of fresh water. As the situation continues to grow worse it may become necessary to find ways to use this water even if it seems impractical now.
If the human race is going to have a future we are going to have to forget about capitalist market-based belief systems. It would require an international effort but I think the creation of new agricultural regions from deserts must be seriously explored.
Unfortunately, even if it is technologically possible the present economic order and political strife won't allow it.

Brian White
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I do not think Desalination is an option. It takes too much energy to do it and to transport the cleaned up sea water inland. Remember global warming? It is all caused by massive energy use.
What did people do 50 years ago? They used less water. One big reason why rivers are drying up is because all the drains go straight into the nearest river. Before drains, the water soaked into the ground and lots of it never got to the river (got sucked up by grass and trees instead).
We need to ban deep wells now. The wells just put the water table out of reach of plantlife. Wells kill plants!
The oil industry injects lots of water into the deepest rock formations to force the oil out.
Long term, it is probably not that bright of an idea because you will have billions of gallons of oily water oozing to the surface at some stage.
We can get by with a whole lot less water.
Perhaps genetic engineering will come to the rescue! We can excrete uric acid like birds (uses less water).

Policywonk
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quote: What did people do 50 years ago? They used less water.

We did use less water per capita. But there were also fewer of us.


Policywonk
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quote: The Antarctic ice cap is a huge reserve of fresh water.
True, but it's melting. It's not just overuse, but also climate change which is causing water shortages.

quote: It would require an international effort but I think the creation of new agricultural regions from deserts must be seriously explored.

It makes more sense to try to prevent desertification of agricultural regions.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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marzo
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Since the Antarctic ice cap is melting as a result of global warming this is all the more reason to harvest ice on a large scale. When the ice has melted into the sea it has been lost forever as a source of fresh water.
Ships propelled by sails with additional power generation created by wind turbines and solar panels could fill storage containers with ice. Then, these sailing ships transport the ice from the Antarctic to seaports in Namibia or Australia where it can then be deposited in huge underground chambers that would become aquifers to support new farms.
I think it is technologically possible and the only impediments to such a plan are the false constraints of capitalism and global politics.

gram swaraj
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marzo, do you get your inspiration from Futurama? Just curious.

Anyways, just want to point out (particularly to any Free Dumb Minion types that may be lurking around) that all the flooding around the world does not refute the Earth Policy Institute's report. Sudden downpours run off towards the ocean, they do not soak through the ground into aquifers.

[ 30 August 2007: Message edited by: gram swaraj ]


saga
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Joined: Aug 5 2006
quote:Originally posted by marzo:
Since the Antarctic ice cap is melting as a result of global warming this is all the more reason to harvest ice on a large scale. When the ice has melted into the sea it has been lost forever as a source of fresh water.
Ships propelled by sails with additional power generation created by wind turbines and solar panels could fill storage containers with ice. Then, these sailing ships transport the ice from the Antarctic to seaports in Namibia or Australia where it can then be deposited in huge underground chambers that would become aquifers to support new farms.
I think it is technologically possible and the only impediments to such a plan are the false constraints of capitalism and global politics.

That would speed up warming even more. No thanks.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004
The poster marzo sounds like a genius compared with liberal capitalists screwing over the planet now. All I need to see is another picture of a sea tortoise choking on another plastic bag to realize the world took a wrong turn somewhere.

Brian White
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Joined: Jan 26 2005
Sounds exactly the same as the liberal capalists to me.
quote:Originally posted by Fidel:
The poster marzo sounds like a genius compared with liberal capitalists screwing over the planet now. All I need to see is another picture of a sea tortoise choking on another plastic bag to realize the world took a wrong turn somewhere.

M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005
The latest Greenwashing scam: Water Offsets
quote:The corrosive influence of offsetting is now not even restricted to climate change and carbon emissions. Coca-Cola has been the subject of sustained campaigns by social justice groups all over the world, but its business practices in India have received particular attention. In 2003, the Delhi-based Centre for Science and Environment issued a report on laboratory tests that showed pesticide and insecticide levels of between eleven and seventy times the maximum set by the European Union for drinking water, in a number of soft drinks being sold by Coca-Cola in India. The US-based India Resource Center has made numerous allegations against the company, saying that it causes severe water shortages for local communities, and that its bottling facilities pollute the surrounding soil and groundwater. In March 2004, officials in Kerala, a state in Southern India, shut down one of Coca-Cola’s bottling plants over claims by local communities and activists that it had drained and polluted local water supplies.

In August 2007, while he sipped a can of Diet Coke in front of the distinctive WWF panda logo, the CEO of Coca-Cola, Neville Isdell, announced a US$20 million partnership with WWF that would aim to “replace every drop of water we use in our beverages and their production”. Aside from plans to reduce and recycle the water being used, the third component of the package was to replenish. This replenishment wouldn’t be taking place at the sites of the water depletion, but through a series of projects taking place in other parts of the world – effectively water offsets.

This US$20 million sum represents less than 1% of Coca-Cola’s enormous US$2.4 billion annual advertising budget, and is being used to counteract the negative publicity that Coca-Cola has received through its practices of water depletion and pollution in countries like India. The company has maintained a vigorous campaign of denial of responsibility for any of the devastating impacts that such communities have suffered, so by using water offsets, it can play the corporate good guy in other parts of the world without having to even acknowledge the damage it has caused elsewhere.


remind
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Today in QP, the CPC MP for Owen Sound etc, had to present a petition asking the government to act upon the falling levels of the Great Lakes and address climate change that is causing it, there were close to 4000 signatures. He appeared very apologetic for having to do so!

NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008

The plan should be to selll our water, as Canadians are NOT refusing to consume the fruit and vegetables that are grown there, eh.

But no, Canadians are too stupid to make a buck, they would rather just have hypocritical protests.

Punishing drought has California fearing the worst

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/punishing-drought-has-california-fearing-the-worst/article16650342/

 280


NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008

Quite the contrast.

January was England's wettest winter month in almost 250 years

Last month's seasonal total was higher than any since 1767 and three times the average level

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/01/january-uk-wettest-winter-month-250-years


Policywonk
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NorthReport wrote:

The plan should be to selll our water, as Canadians are NOT refusing to consume the fruit and vegetables that are grown there, eh.

But no, Canadians are too stupid to make a buck, they would rather just have hypocritical protests.

Punishing drought has California fearing the worst

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/punishing-drought-has-california-fearing-the-worst/article16650342/

 280

Sell it? No we'd just rather give it away. Seriously, I think rather than mega-projects to move or desalinate water people will just move. That's what happened in the '30s, and there is no reason to think it wouldn't happen now.


quizzical
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Joined: Dec 8 2011

the idea of selling bulk water should be fought at every level. 2nd thought maybe it should be sold to the fracking and tar sands companies who use more than their share.


NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008

Policywonk

Except they want their sunshine and warm weather too. Laughing


NorthReport
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Seriously, how much longer will the USA wait before they come after our fresh water?

Not too much longer I fathom.

Enjoy it while it lasts Canadians.

California farmers brace for little or no water amid extreme drought

Federal officials to announce Friday how much water is available for farmers, fish migrations and communities this year

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/california-farmers-brace-li...


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